Enhancing Cognitive Function and Leadership Through Diet

Paula: [00:00:00] Welcome, everyone, to Chatting with the Experts TV show, hosted by me, Paula Okonneh, where I speak with women from Africa, women from the Caribbean, women in the diaspora, and these are professional women and successful businesswomen as well. The mission of this show is to educate, inspire, and encourage women worldwide, globally.
And sometimes I have men on the show, but for the most part, it’s women. Today’s topic is so interesting. It’s called Cooking for Leadership, Intelligence, and Health. And my guest is a culinary anthropologist and medical sociologist. Dr. Michelle Beadle Holder explodes the deep connection between [00:01:00] food, health, and leadership and explains how traditional dietary practices and cultural food rituals impact our well being as well as our cognitive function.
She’s a speaker, an author, and a coach, and she’s also the founder and CEO of the lifestyle company Food at the Center, which helps busy professionals create balanced and meaningful lives. I could say so much more about her, but why don’t I let her come on to the show. So welcome to the show Michelle.
Michelle: Hi, thanks for having me.
Paula: Thanks for joining us today.
Michelle: It’s my pleasure.
Paula: Sorry, you were saying something?
Michelle: I said it’s my pleasure.
Paula: Thank you. So you’re a culinary anthropologist and a medical sociologist. Tell us more about that. I know some people will be like, what?
Michelle: [00:02:00] Yeah, big terms. So actually I got my PhD in sociology and my concentration was medical sociology. So I looked at social determinants of health. So instead of just looking at health from a biological perspective, where we think about genes or like health issues being passed down by genes, you think about how your social environment, history, the politics, all of those economics, inequality affects people’s overall health and well being, how they fare in life. And in terms of the anthropology component, when I was in undergrad, I got my degree in sociology and anthropology and over the years have had a great interest in food and culture and cooking and culture. So I combined those two to look at [00:03:00] health in general, especially from a Caribbean or an African diaspora perspective.
Paula: Food means a lot to us. We know that. It’s got to taste good. It may not have to look the best, but it has to taste good.
Michelle: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Which is part of the reason why I started Food at the Center. There are many different reasons why I did, but one of them, one of the work that I do is around making healthy food taste good. I was brought up in a household where my mom was pretty much the main leader in the household and she exemplifies what healthy living and eating is like how to prioritize self care. And she worked a lot when I was growing up [00:04:00] and she had high blood pressure and you know, my mom is a pretty, sometimes can be all or nothing, but she definitely changed the diet reduced sodium for not only herself, but for the entire family. And for me, it was a shocker because anybody in the Caribbean knows that we love our saltfish and…
Paula: Yes. Breakfast.
Michelle: Yeah, we love our saltfish and in Jamaica, where I’m from, you know, it’s Ackee and saltfish. For some others, it’s cook up saltfish or, you know, we do some variation of saltfish. And for those who don’t know, it’s salted cod and, but your audience would know. Yeah. So, you know, when she did that, it, it changed the way that I saw healthy eating. I saw it as like, not. And over the years, as I had my [00:05:00] own health issues, I was able to recover from issues related to like depression or anxiety. I found healing in the kitchen for my own self. And it started with like a little herb garden. And then a small plot of land and an apartment that I had and that little herb garden in the U. S. kind of brought me back to my childhood in Jamaica because they cook with a lot of thyme.
Paula: Yes.
Michelle: And yeah, I was growing, I discovered these thyme plants. I didn’t know that they had such variety of thyme. And in New York, it can have silver thyme, variegated yellow thyme, English thyme, French thyme, you name it. There’s a whole lot of different varieties. And the introduction to thyme, at that point I was going through a divorce. So I was pretty sad. And growing the garden and [00:06:00] cooking helped to bring back joy to my life. And it was also a way to reconnect to my culture. And eventually I started blending spices. And that’s a way that I was able to change how I saw healthy food as not just something that you had to grit and bear and have no joy with to actual activity that can enhance well being personally and for a wide array of people.
Paula: I love that. I love how it started with, you know, as you said, a plot of land, planting, brought you back to like your childhood. And then from there you looked at various ways that you could, you know, get different species of a plant, in your case thyme, that brought you, you know, I guess it gave you good memories and it was able to [00:07:00] heal you to the point that you were like, okay, what else can I do with this, right?
Michelle: Yeah, I was telling the story and some lady said, Oh, do you sell, do you sell spices? And I was like, Oh, I do now. And I’ll figure out how to do it. It turned out when I made them, I didn’t want to sell them to anyone. I wanted to keep them to myself. But you know, I’m, you know, opening, you know, for people who know that they exist, you know, you can get spices from me, but they’re salt-free so that people can tailor their own ingredients for their palate and control what they put in their food.
Paula: You know what I have to get some of that from you because I always I try as much as possible to support support my guests and whatever business or mission that they may be on. And I have quite a few things in my house from some past guests. So I’m [00:08:00] going to add yours because I’m trying to eat healthier. And I can see the difference. You know, I’m eating. I started doing the green smoothies. And I’m probably veering off the point, but green smoothies are beginning to work for me because I put in kale, but I put some other things I like, like, I mean, we use oat milk and put some ginger in it.
Michelle: Yeah.
Paula: Girl, the thing tastes better than it looks. And I’m not hungry. You know, I’m not craving for sweets because especially those of us who have Caribbean heritage, there’s that thing, you know, I was brought up with a lot of, not deliberately brought up with a lot of sugar, but sugar was a part of my diet. And so, I gravitated towards the sweet juices and the fudge and sugar cake and so on and so forth. So, seeing as chocolate, I mean, chocolate is one of my best friends, but no longer. So anyway, I’m digressing.
Michelle: No, no, no, it’s all aligned. The first time I tried a green [00:09:00] smoothie, it was my husband, my current husband. He brought me this green juice. It’s like, have I had green smoothie before? And I was like, no. And he’s like, I’m going to bring it for you. He brought it for me and I looked at it and I was like, he had it in a jar and I was like, okay, thank you. And he was like, you should taste it. And I was like, well, I’m going to taste it later. Right. Cause it did not look appetizing. I was like, green. And he insisted. I tasted it and it was good. Like, so you shouldn’t judge a book by its cover. I actually really like green smoothie and I think I drink it more than he does now.
Paula: Look at that.
Michelle: Yeah.
Paula: Look at that. Yeah. I mean, I started this about four weeks ago and I feel the difference. I feel it in my, you know, my knees used to be aching. They’re not aching as much. And you know, it’s what you put in. I mean, of course it affects every organ of your body. So I’m making more of a conscious [00:10:00] effort to eat clean. So we’ll talk about me getting some of your products.
Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it’s all about not only. Well, some foods, like whole foods, what I discovered when you eat high processed food, just from my personal experience you crave more. It’s like, you’re never satisfied.
Paula: Yes.
Michelle: When you eat whole foods, there’s a point in your body that says, okay, stop, you’ve had enough. You’re less likely to overeat brown rice. You’re less likely to overeat avocado. We call it pear in Jamaica. You’re less likely to overeat anything that’s minimally processed. And once you can change your palate from, if you’re used to kind of like a high process, well, once you change your palate, you, you start to notice flavors that you never noticed before, because [00:11:00] there is more sensitivity to taste. So now I like when I eat greens, different kinds of green, like kale, chard, arugula I can notice the variation in flavor and it becomes like a really enjoyable experience to eat whole foods, whereas before it’s kind of like that doesn’t taste good, right? But the body can adjust to that, adjust really easily.
Paula: Yes, yes, yes. I definitely am enjoying my kale. For my green smoothies, I use kale and it’s, you know, because it doesn’t, I don’t blend it so that it’s completely smooth. There’s some chunks in it and I add, what’s this other thing? Oh my God. Not alfalfa. I can’t remember.
Michelle: Like microgreens?
Paula: Sorry?
Michelle: Microgreens?
Paula: No. It’ll come to me later. Just out of the blue, you’ll hear me just say it and you’ll be like, [00:12:00] what relevance does that have? It’s what I’m trying to remember, but it tastes so good. Flaxseeds, that’s it.
Michelle: Flaxseeds, yeah.
Paula: Grounded flaxseeds. Yes, it’s so good. It’s so good. So yeah, so you, you know, being a, a culinary anthropologist, and, oh my gosh, I love it. I love it. I love it. And a medical sociologist. We talked about how food rituals and leadership, cultural rituals and leadership are intertwined. I thought that was so interesting. Tell me how, more about that.
Michelle: Well, the other day, I was actually interviewing my mom and a while ago, she told me that she used to read to us when we were in her womb and I kind of let it go. And then I call her and say, there’s a story here. I wonder what, what she’s talking about. And so I said, can, can you share the story again? And she said, yes. And I was like, can I record it? And she said, yes. [00:13:00] And I said, okay, so tell me the story. And she said, when she was pregnant, she learned that the baby hears what you say and which surprised her. And she said that a friend told her that you should read to the baby and I was like, okay, what did you read? She said the Bible number one, right? There were like, my grandmother used to get Reader’s Digest.
Paula: Yes.
Michelle: Yes. And she said she read that and the newspaper or anything that she could get her hands on. We didn’t have a lot of books in the house when we were growing up in Jamaica, but there were certain literature that she could read to us and she read to us which kind of surprised me.
And I said, so what was your hope for doing that? And she said well, I wanted intelligent children and I know [00:14:00] that she didn’t just want intelligent children. She’s going to put the work in to give us opportunities that she didn’t have. And because I’m a twin, first set of two sets of twin, the first of two sets.
Paula: Wow.
Michelle: I think I learned that they saw me as the leader in a family and my mom not only, you know, read to us, but she ate well so that we would develop in our minds. And one of the key tools of a good leader, the thing that the organ that a leader uses the most is their brain and making decisions constantly, right? And you can even experience decision fatigue at some point. And if you’re also always really busy, you’re skipping meals or you’re grabbing something that’s really convenient, like takeout or some other type of snack. And if you’re, you know, made me think about my mom and her leadership, right. In terms of [00:15:00] thinking about the development of the brain of the child since birth and thinking about the development of the body since birth.
But then when you grow older, you might invest in a mind, right? They’re high achieving people. I like to work with high achievers. You’re investing in the mind constantly, personal development and professional development, all of those things. But you may be the, this not investing as much in your body and there’s research that shows that there’s a connection between the brain, brain and the gut. So they call the gut as like the second brain.
Paula: Yes. I heard that recently. Yes.
Michelle: Yeah. Like a second brain. And if you’re not, you’re feeding the mental brain, like the one in your head, like with information and knowledge improving yourself, but are you doing the same for the gut?
Paula: Yeah.
Michelle: And those [00:16:00] two things kind of go hand in hand and it’s not that negligence out of our part. I think the research didn’t show those connections. We didn’t know that those two things were working hand in hand, but some of the things that I want to share is that, you know, prioritize self care. Even if you don’t take care of yourself, think of like how feeding yourself will enhance the goals that you have for your profession if you want to get that. You wanna stay sharp, right? You were saying even now that you notice you’re not experiencing aches and pains, but also when you eat well. You have better mind, like mental clarity. You’re less lethargic.
Paula: Yes, for sure.
Michelle: So you’re making, I guess what they say, feeding the temple.
Paula: Yes.
Michelle: So that sets you up for the best that life has to offer. And [00:17:00] then think about as a leader, there are others that are watching you, right?
Paula: Mm hmm.
Michelle: And the connection between physical health and brain health. Also, they’re showing that there’s like research on therapeutic like culinary therapy where people are like cooking in addition to getting like talk therapy and that enhances their wellbeing, their mental health. So there’s a lot of innovation that’s happening in public health when it comes to the connection between food and, you know, better quality of life. Longevity of life by saying, let’s go into the kitchen instead of only reading the labels on a package or have an outsourcing home cooking to someone [00:18:00] else, like you have Uber Eats and all of those things since COVID, right? We’re much more reliant on takeout to go back into the kitchen and think about, well, can the kitchen be our laboratory? Can the kitchen be our medicine cabinet? Because what food is medicine, but not all food is medicine, right? Some food is poison.
Paula: Yes.
Michelle: Yes.
Paula: Yes.
Michelle: Yeah.
Paula: And you made a good point there because you know, with takeout, yes. Okay. Sometimes we do need the convenience of having takeout, but you are not aware of what is in that food, you know, people put all sorts of ingredients, it may not be bad. But it may not be good for you, you know?
Michelle: Right.
Paula: Like there’s some people like I remember when my daughter suffered from so many allergies at one point and she couldn’t eat certain things that I could eat and those some of the certain things that she couldn’t eat would have been good for her, but she was just allergic to it.
Michelle: Right.
Paula: But, you [00:19:00] know, when we started cooking at home that she had more control over what went into her food.
Michelle: Yes,
Paula: and
Michelle: Yeah, it’s really interesting. For me, it’s kind of a full circle because I grew up not liking cooking. I didn’t like it. You know, I learned, my dad taught me how to cook and he believed that. He was preparing me to be a good wife and mother, and I was like, I don’t want to cook. I’m going to marry a chef. Leave me alone. I want to stay in these books, you know. That was my priority, and I learned the skill, I begrudgingly learned the skill, but now, as I get older, I see the value, like how it’s helped me. And reframing how I see cooking as not something that I just do for others, but something that I can do for myself [00:20:00] and cooking is my self care. So, yeah.
Paula: You know, that’s very interesting. You said reframing how you looked at cooking. Let’s expand on that a little bit. Like, your dad was looking at it as a skill to prepare you to be a good wife and mother.
Michelle: Yes. Yes.
Paula: Yeah. You’re saying in 2025, we should look at it as preparing the person to, you know, be healthy overall, healthy brain, healthy gut, healthy person. Then you can go out and be the best version of yourself.
Michelle: Yeah. And also healthy relationships.
Paula: Yes.
Michelle: Right. The dining table is a sacred space that people come together and they connect and now we have all these technology, you know, even the very culture of [00:21:00] takeout means that you’re eating in another room and it’s worse than this, you may not be at a table.
Paula: Yes.
Michelle: Or TV dinners were kind of created, you’re eating, watching a device, watching some technology and you’re not really connected on with your food, but you’re also not connecting with each other. And so we may be in a space together and still feel lonely and isolated and go bringing back some of those, you know, old time ways of cooking and cooking being in the kitchen, having the kitchen be the center of the home, having a meal together, breaking bread. And finding out how is this person doing and you can look at them. You can’t lie. It’s harder to lie.
Paula: Around the table, right?
Michelle: Yeah, right. It’s harder to lie. If we’re looking eye to eye and I can watch your body language. You know what I mean? I could probe. I can sense if something’s going good or bad. [00:22:00] And, you know, they’re saying that children, like adolescents, when they eat together with their family, that they fare better in terms of mental health. So, and I think even as you get older, right, social isolation is a major issue and having like intergenerational mealtime Allows everyone to benefit. Yeah.
Paula: And you say that and I get flashbacks to when at one stage of my life, my mom moved back home with all five of us and we lived at home with her mom and dad. And we used to have lunch 12 to 1. Everybody was picked up from school. You came home, you ate lunch and there’s so many long standing jokes that come from, you know, my grandfather would say something and it’s still at the dinner table, at the lunch table. We didn’t really do dinner. It was lunch and, you know, talked about the foods that we ate then when I thought but it gave us some [00:23:00] connectivity, some, you know, there was that bonding that went on at that table. Which I have to admit, I was… if my children could come on the show they’ll say, but mom, you didn’t do it. No, I didn’t, you know?
Michelle: Yeah, yeah.
Paula: But the families were bigger then.
Michelle: Yeah.
Paula: So when we gathered around the table, it was a bigger crowd and bigger setting and lots of things were talked about. So
Michelle: Yeah, I mean, you do the best that you can and I think that’s why celebrations like Thanksgiving, which, you know, can be stressful and could have social dynamics that don’t work out, but they’re like sacred celebrations that people have. And they bring people, bring families together. Cookouts, potlucks yeah.
Paula: People talk about like how, I guess we covered it, how, you know, the challenges, modern living, the challenges and that bring that, you know, break down all our cultural connection. But as you mentioned, you can still kind of [00:24:00] vary it. I mean, you can ensure that you meet together maybe once a week, or like you said, cookouts, thanksgiving. That is something that, you know, I know it’s become commercialized, but still it’s a way that we can still bring family together.
Michelle: Yeah.
Paula: For meals.
Michelle: Mm hmm, yeah. And I mean, it’s not all great, and then, why, the reason why takeout is so popular, it’s because it’s work. Cooking is labor. It’s work. It is. You know, I’m not kidding. You know, you have to be committed. it has to connect to your core value for it to be sustainable because the options are so much more easier to kind of, we have options now, whereas before people didn’t have takeout, they had to cook, right? If you didn’t cook, you didn’t eat. So you have to be clear about what’s my [00:25:00] motivation for cooking and how does it align with what I consider valuable? And so it makes all that labor bearable. It’s hard, but it can also be enjoyable. Right? There are a lot of people that love to cook. It’s kind of their therapeutic, you know, me time. And for others, it’s drudgery. But I say that there’s a role for everyone because historically cooking was a shared.
Paula: Yes.
Michelle: It wasn’t just one person doing everything, you know, so.
Paula: So Michelle, you won’t believe we’ve been talking for almost 27 minutes.
Michelle: Okay.
Paula: Because it’s, you know, they said time flies when…
Michelle: Hopefully, I got to all your questions.
Paula: Yes. Yes. Yeah. But there’s one question I want to [00:26:00] ask you about. Because I know that you have this company Food At The Center. What can you tell us, or what can you leave with those who are going to be listening at a later time, but of course we have Q& A immediately afterwards so people can ask you this question, but so this is for the record. Remember to think about any healthy, boosting foods that we can put into our modern, you know, we can get practice with nowadays in the kitchen. What would you suggest? I know you talked about when we eat food whole, as opposed to processed, then we have less of a craving for, you know, more processed food. Well, what’s one, one tip that you can share with us?
Michelle: Well, I say get familiar with herbs and spices.
Paula: Okay.
Michelle: Because it can transform the way any food tastes. And [00:27:00] so, for example, I’ll give you some of my top favorites. Now, some people might not like them or not, but I would say smoked paprika.
Paula: Okay.
Michelle: Good. Like if you’re trying to reduce your sodium intake. Sprinkling a little bit of smoked paprika, even like you would like at the dinner table. Sprinkle some. What else? That’s one of my favorites. Ha ha ha. That’s a staple. Cinnamon is also a really nice one. In terms of food, I say, I wouldn’t give a suggestion, a recommendation. I would say pay attention to what you like and what likes you back. That would be, people are so different, right? And I always, I’m off the mind that like the standard [00:28:00] recommendations are just recommendations. They work for some, and they don’t work for others.
So I say take back your power and pay attention to what you love, what brings you joy, what makes your body feels good, like pay attention to that. And then there are things that make you feel sluggish. This is kind of like where you bring the mindfulness into eating because it’s very hard to say do this or do that because we’re so different.
Paula: I love that. Pay attention to what you’re eating. And yes, that is a good note to end on because I know for myself that I discovered that if I drink use too much ginger, I start to feel very lightheaded. So now I pay more attention, like, yes, ginger is good, but in what quantities?
Michelle: Yes.
Paula: Even if it’s, you know, you go to the health store, look at what the ingredients are, because they may be natural ingredients, but they’re still [00:29:00] chemical, they’re organic chemicals.
Michelle: Right.
Paula: And you know what’s going on in your body and what you need to avoid. It may all be healthy, but it may still not be good for you. That’s what I’ve noticed. Now that I’m done with health journey.
Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. And don’t feel guilty or pressured to follow anybody’s… when they tell you this is the, you know, like the gold standard and this is like law. No, trust yourself because I think the health industry has become one that they tell you, these are the top, this, that, that, that, like they’re the authority on what works. And it’s useful to get information, but I say like recipes are not a rule book. They’re just like a guidance to how to cook. Similarly, I would say [00:30:00] for any health recommendation that people give to you, you are the authority, because when you pay attention to your body, it helps to inform you on like what will work and what won’t.
Paula: So true. So true. So Michelle, if someone watching this later on wants to get in touch with you. I assume you’re online, right? How can they…
Michelle: Yes. . I’m online. I am @michellebeadleholder at Instagram.
Paula: Okay.
Michelle: My website is foodatthecenter.com. I’m mostly on Michelle Beadle Holder at Instagram.
I’m also on LinkedIn if people wanna connect. Yes.
Paula: Lovely. Lovely. And for those of you who have listened to this show, if you would like to be a guest on the show or know more about the show, reach out to me on the contact form on my website, chattingwiththeexperts. com. I am [00:31:00] also on LinkedIn as Paula Okonneh. I am on Instagram. I hold there is at chat_experts_podcast, and I am on Facebook as Paula Okonneh. I always have to think about the Instagram one on Facebook. And so now we’ll open up the floor to those who want to join us and actually ask questions to my phenomenal guest, Dr. Michelle Beadle Holder. Thank you so much, Michelle.
Michelle: Thanks for having me.