College Bound Determination

[00:00:00] Paula: Welcome to “Chatting With The Experts”. This is a podcast for immigrant women or immigrants, women’s children from Africa and from the Caribbean. And these adventurous women have relocated or would have relocated to the UK or to the US or Canada, or even Australia, from their native countries. And this podcast, we talk about some of the struggles that we may have encountered. And I say, “we”, because even though we are first generation or second generation. An immigrant influence is always reflected in their family, in their lives, in everything that they do, or will do. So we will share resources, and we’ll also talk about our experiences, so that our fellow sisters can benefit from this. So today, my guest is on the amazing woman. I would say she’s a fellow African, but actually she was born here. So she’s a first generation sister American with African parents. Her name is Carol Ben-Davis and she lives and works in Indiana. With that I want to say welcome to “Chatting With The Experts”. And Carol, I can’t say too much about you, because there’s so much to say about you. So tell us about yourself.
[00:01:31] Carol: Well, thank you so much. I’m just so excited to be talking with you to be sharing my experience. I’m a very proud first-generation American. My parents are from Sierra Leone, West Africa, and I was born in Brooklyn, New York. And I am a mother of two kids, a seven-year-old and a five-year-old. And I think often about how my parents came here at such a young age, didn’t have family. Their mothers were back home, their siblings were back home. They were the first of their siblings to come here to the state. And I think often about, man how difficult was that to have young kids and, you know, just to be living in a country that’s not your own. My mom always talks about how America was sweet when she came here. She said Freetown was sweet and America was sweet. And so being a first generation American has really influenced so much of my life. It gave me a foundation for the love of education that I have. My dad and mom, always talked about school and schooling. And I think that might’ve influenced my career path, where I worked for over 20 years in higher education. I actually have leveraged that experience to start my own business called “College Bound Determination”, where I help parents of college bound kids to prepare for the realities of college. And we’ll get a little bit into that. That’s sort of, you know, who I am. I’m the oldest, so I think that’s very significant in African family. I’m the oldest of three girls, my sister and I are, my middle sister and I are four years apart. And then my baby sister and I are nine, sometimes 10 years apart. Her birthday is December 31st, so it kind of depends. But you know, just being a big sister has also been such a impactful part of my life, especially for my baby sister. When she off, she says “I’m more her mom” and I’m just like, “no”. And my mom says that I helped raise her. And I do remember helping her with potty training and things like that. But, you know, I feel it’s always given me a level of responsibility to be a good example for my sisters and to, you know, you’re always striving to make your parents proud. I think that’s a very African notion. I know other cultures have it, but I feel it very strongly as an African American. That the drive to make your parents proud, to really live up to the sacrifices that they made. Like, I am constantly thinking about, you know, what are they going to say? Even in this interview, I’m like, well, I know they’re going to listen to it, you know. I hope I make them proud. It’s just something I am always thinking about.
[00:04:26] Paula: I know you will make them proud, not just in this interview, but you have made them proud. But as you say, as you said, being the oldest African parents and of course being after, there was a lot of spoken and unspoken expectations put upon you, correct?
[00:04:46] Carol: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:04:51] Paula: Yeah. So I noticed that you did your undergrad decree in “UNC Chapel Hill”.
[00:05:00] Carol: I surely did, I surely did. I am a very proud TarHills, so proud in fact, I worked, I went to school there, graduated in four years. The day after I graduated from college, I was working on campus. I was working in the black cultural center there. From there, I went on to work in the office of undergraduate admission. So, and then I went off to graduate school in Chicago, at “Loyola University” in Chicago.
[00:05:29] Paula: Amazing. And you said you worked the day after graduating, you worked, you started working on campus in admission. That is probably what influenced you to go into the career and the business that you now have.
[00:05:42] Carol: Absolutely. And actually it was working at the black cultural center. I was working at the black cultural center there. And when I was in that position, someone was doing their practicum, from bowling green university. And she said, Hey Carol, do you know that, you know, what you’re doing is an actual field, you can go to even graduate school to learn how to work in universities. And they have been doing their practicum in the office of the Dean of students. And I said, “oh no, really? Wow, that sounds fascinating”. Because I loved working on campus. I had been involved as a work-study student in the black cultural center and another office on campus. Been involved in our football program, helping with the recruits and the secretaries and doing some of their, helping with some administrative work and helping with families when they come and tour the campus. So I fell in love with just all the lot of the different aspects of higher education. Not knowing that there was a field for it. And I did go on to the admissions office. And then I had always said I wanted to get my masters. And I had a wonderful supervisor, Herb Davis, who is still part of my life. My birthday was this past Sunday, and he calls me, he calls me every year. Just checking on me, how I’m doing, checking on my family. I’ve had amazing mentors throughout my life. And so yes, definitely working, being inspired by administrators on Carolina’s campus did inspire me to look into, wow, is this really a career? Can I really spend my life working on a college campuses? And the answer was, yes. I worked on four different campuses, large, small, medium, public, and private, and a lot of different areas in higher ED. So working with student activities, working with leadership, diversity and inclusion, fraternity, and sorority life, student advocacy and support. And then I had an opportunity to be a director for diversity inclusion at one of our colleges at the university where I spent a good number of my professional career “Purdue University”. I worked there for 13 years, where I was an assistant dean of student. So I just have a very, I say it’s the breadth and depth of the collegiate experience. I know how to help kids get into college, and I know how to help them stay and be successful. I know the ups and I know the downs. And through my business, what I really try to do is help students have more ups than downs, more breakthroughs than break downs. Because I saw so many of the breakdowns and that’s what inspired me to start my business, because there’s so much conversation about preparing for college. And if you even go out and Google, “preparing for college”, you’ll find information about college admissions, financial aid, and scholarships. There’s little conversation about what happens when students get to campus. What’s the mindset? What are the habits? What are the things that they need to do to be successful when they get there? What are the obstacles that can be anticipated that students can navigate around and through? And so really through my business, it’s really comprehensive, you know, and trying to help students and parents, I help guide parents, but to help students be successful, to help them understand what is it really take? What does it mean? What’s the responsibility of being a college student?
[00:09:22] Paula: I love that. I love that, especially because you know, when we think most times of you know college, you find a lot of parents are more focused on getting their kids into college than actually thinking about, okay, now they are in college how do we make sure that they succeed while in college. And that’s something you just touched on, but you know, it’s important to focus on their mindsets. What are the expectations? What would college life be like? Because it’s so different.
[00:09:53] Carol: It’s so different.
[00:09:54] Paula: Yeah. So let’s talk a bit about that. What do you think that your, the fact that you’re a first-generation American can influence you into thinking, you know, all different aspects of the students when they get to college. Because we did say a few minutes ago that being the first born child of an African immigrant, African parents living in the United States, there were lots of expectations put on you, and that I know is a cultural thing. So could you tell me a bit about that?
[00:10:24] Carol: And, you know, I think what is so amazing, what I love about college is the self discovery. So I mentioned that I was born in Brooklyn. I moved to New Jersey when I was 13, no, I moved to New Jersey when I was 10, and then I moved to North Carolina when I was 13. And the town that we moved to in North Carolina was very small. So I had this very diverse experience of being with kids who are first generation American themselves from Jamaica, for instance, from Africa, from China. You know, just a very diverse upbringing growing up in Brooklyn, to New Jersey as well to move into this very small town in Weldon North Carolina. Weldon was so small, people from North Carolina didn’t know where it was.
[00:11:14] Paula: I don’t. Have learned about it today, and I lived in North Carolina for 26 years.
[00:11:19] Carol: Oh goodness. Yes, it’s a very small town Northeast part of the state 30 miles from Rocky mountain was what I would always have to say, to explain to people where it was in proximity to a place they knew. And so when you go off to college, you know, when you have an opportunity to learn more about yourself than you did, maybe when you’re in high school. You know, when you’re off on your own, trying to establish your identity. I think it’s very similar, whether you’re a first-generation American or not that experience. And so I thought about that in working with students often. I thought about those first borns whose parents, and I always joke with my mom that I was the experimental child. You know, you don’t know what you’re doing as a parent, and I get it now. You know, you don’t know, oh now, oh my goodness, well, we’ll talk about that too. But being a parent really also impacted my life. That’s really why I was inspired to start my business, because I had always talked about these parents and these helicopter parents and, oh my gosh. Then I had my own child and I said, oh, I’m so sorry. But going off to college, it really gives you an amazing opportunity to learn more about yourself. And I cannot say that I fully embrace being an African when I was growing up in North Carolina. We were the only Africans, it was like white people, black folks, and then my family. You know, I didn’t have a lot of people who I could resonate with, you know, who understood what it was like to, you know, be a first-generation. And I had a lot of shame, I would have to say around being African, you know, there was a lot of teasing in school and I didn’t want to share that part of my identity with my classmates. It was so different when I went off to college, when I went to Carolina, because they were, you know, blacks like me that were African and American. So that term African-American has a dual meaning for me because I am African, but I was born in America. But they’re African-Americans whose families have been here for a centuries. And so you see me on face appearance and you assume that I’m black and yes I am. But there is a lived experience that I didn’t have and it made me question my blackness. And it wasn’t until I got around other students who had similar upbringings to me, and I joined the African Student Association. They changed the name to “Oasis”, and I cannot remember what it means right now. But it was just an embracing of other students who were born in Africa, or whose parents were born in Africa and they were first gen. And we were in this space together learning and growing, being a student, trying to figure life out that I really started to embrace my identity. And I think we forget that aspect of college life. We think solely about the academic piece. We think a lot about the social aspects, but the learning and growing that you do is so profound. And I learned about that in graduate school in terms of student development theory and the how that impacts all of the students that come to a college campus. So long answer short, being a first gen American and thinking about the identity piece, you know, the identity crisis that can often happen. I related it to a lot of other areas where identity was challenged. For instance, a student who has been earning all A’s since kindergarten and their identity is that of a scholar. You know, who’s earning all, A’s an honors student whose parents has a bumper sticker on the back of their car. They suddenly go to college and they’re not making all A’s anymore, they’re failing. And they start to wonder and question, who am I. You know, that identity crisis kind of comes into play, where you had to learn to figure out for yourself who you are outside of what the external appearances may be. So I really, there’s a lot of conversation about where the college is important, where the college is necessary. You know, whether you can be successful you know, without going to college. And I definitely, you know, I am one who doesn’t feel that everyone needs to go to college. You need to do something after the high school. You need to go trade school, get a certificate or something. But there is something to be said about the collegiate environment, where a young person between the ages of 18 and 22 and older for those who are in graduate school. Where you’re with other students who are going through this sort of shared experience of being on your own. Making friends with people who you might have not had an opportunity to make friends with, you know, when you’re in high school. A lot of people come from very sheltered backgrounds, right? You’re you’re meeting people who have different thought processes than you. They worship differently than you, they think differently than you. And being able to be in an environment where you’re interacting with these individuals in such a safe space. There’s nothing like it. There’s no replica of it, you know? And I am such an advocate for college, for the collegiate experience. There’s a way to do it, and I think for so many individuals, they went to college, didn’t know why they were there. You know, changed their major several times, graduated with a degree that they don’t use and they feel very disenchanted about their collegiate experience. And they’re on that bandwagon of college is a waste of time, college is a waste of money. But I believe that those individuals who did college and took full advantage of the opportunities that were there, they have a different narrative about their collegiate experience. And I want more of them to have that kind of transformational experience when they go off to college.
[00:17:56] Paula: So I love what you’re saying, and I love the fact that you talked about both ends. Because I asked you the question. So the emphasis, most times for young people in high school, as you got to get into college. But listening to you talk and hearing, I mean, what you’re saying about, you know, the collegic experience is important. Is that something that you’re able to convey to parents? And is that something, I mean, I’m listening to you and I’m thinking, wow, is that something you addressed from both ends? Yes. You know, not all children are meant to go to college, but at the same time, if you do go to college, these are some of the things that you need to be aware of. Because I asked this for two reasons. One, the fact that you’re first generation American, and I know how African parents have that reputation for, you are going to college and you must succeed, you know. And the thing is most African countries were colonized by Britain. So you have that kind of British mentality where you go to university and you do one, if you go in and say, I’m going to be studying physics. They expect you to go in saying I’m doing physics and you need to graduate in physics. Whereas the American system, tertiaries educations system here is so different. I had to learn it because as you can see, I wasn’t born here. Where you know, college can be looked at as a place to learn about yourself, you know. Kind of discovering what it is to be a young adult. Because for the African parents, like, am I paying for you or is that way you’re going to go to college? You could learn that at home, you know. So I like your perspective, I like the fact that you’re first generation, and I liked the fact that your business is focused on both sides, the parent and the student. So do you educate, this is a very long question and I hope we get to just. Do you educate them on both ends?
[00:20:02] Carol: I attempt to, I spent a lot of time. I actually am a moderator for a amazing Facebook group, called “parents of black and brown and college bound”. It’s close to 7,000 plus families in the group. And it’s my goal to show the diversity of the collegiate experience. To show and talk about the entire college journey. And it’s so funny because yesterday I had a post where I said, “Hey, I’m just waiting for the time when I can talk real about this process, you thought was overwhelming, but there’s so much more, you know? Don’t take your foot off the brake, you know, thinking that, you know, now that they’ve got accepted, that the journey is over”. Because what I know is first-year students often struggle with that transition from high school to college. But I have another moderator who was just like, oh Carol, give them time to celebrate all these places they’ve been accepted to where these kids have been accepted to some of the best universities in the country. It is such a beautiful thing to see. I had to share that wow, many of us think about college and think about the perspective students, those who are going and touring and thinking about applying to college and those students who’ve been accepted to college. That they’re actually college freshmen, college sophomores, college juniors, college seniors. Those students who are doing a victory lap, one victory lap to graduate school and these people who haven’t even been on a college campus yet predominate the whole conversation about college. And so what I try to do is try and show that it’s not the end, it’s just the beginning. And I try to share, because my experience was very diverse. I got to work with some of the best students at some of the best universities in the country. And I see how the image of the college experience, going to football games, basketball games, the fun aspects of things, you know? Yes the camp, the classes and all of that. But you know, there’s this image and this vision that you have in your head, when you think about college. And for many students, what they expect and what their reality is, is very different. There’s a big disconnect, there’s a huge gap. Because no one tells them about, oh, I’m going to have to live with somebody in my dorm who I don’t know, and there’s going to be roommate conflicts. No one talks about how they, what student might feel being away from home for the first time, you know. I got an opportunity, my last institution was the second largest international student population in the county. Large number of students from all over the world. These students were far away from home, they were homesick, but so were the students who live just right down the road, you know? We don’t talk about what being homesick does for someone. We don’t talk about that identity crisis of the academic piece, the rigor that’s different. So there’s so much conversation that is just missing. You know, when we think about college, you think about, you know, I’m on social media quite a bit. We see all this, you know, excitement over where students have gotten accepted. And then we see when they graduated. What does that middle piece? What is that meet of the collegiate experience? And very rarely are we hearing those conversations, and when we hear it, it’s often very glowing. It’s the students who are the student body presidents, they’re the president of these organizations. They’re, you know, doing all these amazing community service. It’s all very exciting and fun, right? But I unfortunately had an opportunity to work on the side of campus that people don’t talk about. And what was so impactful about this, was I had two different positions on the same campus and felt like what happened, you know? Where I had been doing all these leadership programs, planning events for students to learn about themselves, student, you know, personal development, leadership development, planning, activities, supporting diversity and inclusion initiatives. I did not know that on the other side of the same floor that I had been working on, where students who were really having challenges academically, socially, emotionally, financially, spiritually, physically. I also had a chance to serve on a 24 hour on-call team. So I was get calls at two, three o’clock in the morning. If there was an incident that happened that impacted a student. People don’t see that they don’t know that, you know. So you think, oh, I want my child to go as far away as possible, seven, eight hours. Well, what if you get a call at two o’clock in the morning that your child is in a hospital?
[00:25:08] Paula: What do you ?
[00:25:09] Carol: What do you do? And you don’t even think, oh wow, I should have something in place if that happens. Because you don’t think that’s going to happen. You don’t anticipate a phone call that your child is in the hospital. The child is sick, your child has unfortunately passed away, you know?
[00:25:28] Paula: That’s a big thing.
[00:25:29] Carol: So big. And so I feel sometimes that I’m too much of a doom and gloom when it comes to the collegiate experience. But I want there to be more balanced in the conversation. I want parents and students to be more aware of what could happen, you know. It’s like when you’re getting married, you expect everything to be amazing and wonderful. And, you know, you’re planning for your wedding and that takes so much of part of the conversation, right? Many people plan more for the wedding than they do for their marriage. Right.
[00:26:06] Paula: That’s another topic.
[00:26:07] Carol: That’s another topic. But I see the correlation, because at the same time that I was getting married myself was when I moved over to this other area of the Dean of students office. So I spoke the correlation of this excitement of plan your wedding, it’s going to be beautiful. It’s all about you. It’s your day. And the conversation that wasn’t happening about, how were we as husband and wife going to be a couple blending two as one being on the same page? And If you just focus on the beautiful external stuff, without understanding that there’s going to be some compromise, there’s going to be some difficulty. If you don’t know that when you experience it, you start to wonder, whoa, wait a minute, no one told me, I didn’t expect this. Or you think, that’s them you know, that’s their problem. Those people are the ones that can’t keep their marriages together. I’m going to be different until you get into your situation, you realize, oh my goodness, you know. And some while I try to share many times, I get a lot of pushback, like, oh that’s nice, but that’s not going to happen to my kid, you know. My kid went to a very strong high school that prepared them for college, you know. They had this SAT score, they have this GPA, they’re going to be fine. And I pray to God, you know, that that’s the case. But the reality is for too many students, that’s not. And I had a lot of conversations with parents and students about how, again, when I’ve mentioned that what they expected was not what their reality was. And I believe if you at least know it could happen, you can plan to avoid it.
[00:27:49] Paula: I love that, and I love that you’re addressing that because that is the reality. That is, as you said, that’s the hidden side of college of the college experience, and no one talks about. So what would you say to parents of, let’s start with, because we were talking about immigrant. Parents of first generation Americans, or what, let me say this, children whose parents are immigrants who typically have. As I said, early on, most of us immigrants came from British based educational systems in our home countries. What would you, what advice would you give to them?
[00:28:27] Carol: From my experience, you know, working with students from that diaspora, right. There are very high expectations. These parents have sacrificed so much. They didn’t come here and struggle for their child to be working at McDonald’s. That is not the expectation. But I would say to parents and students alike, that there are more professions and careers than doctor, lawyer, engineer. We have to broaden our thoughts around, what is a successful career. We have to look at what the strengths are of our child. My mom was a retired, is a retired nurse, and she knows a lot of nurses in the diaspora, right? She was like, oh Carol I think you should be a nurse, you just so kind hearted. One, I would cry if any doctor and patients were in my presence and they had bad news. Two, I don’t like the sciences and the math. So while that might be a great profession, is that a great profession for me?
[00:29:45] Paula: Right.
[00:29:45] Carol: Right? Is being a doctor the right profession for me? Is being a lawyer or engineer the right profession for me? They’re great professions, but is that the right one for your child, right? Also the high expectation of success expanding that, so that is not so limited. I think for many students that I’ve worked with and for myself, you know, it’s like an “A”, is the expectation, you know. And I will say that that can really come at a cost, and it’s really great to have students have a balance. Because if you have a child and they have all A’s, but their mental health is, it comes at the expense of their mental health, are all those A’s worth it?
[00:30:34] Paula: Absolutely. I agree, I agree. And then. No finish what you’re saying.
[00:30:40] Carol: Yeah, just you know, redefining what success looks like, expanding the different career paths and choices. Supporting your child being open. I know that there’s a culture of being respectful and you know, not talking back. But giving them an opportunity to practice positive discord in the home. Learning how to advocate for themselves in the home. It will do wonders for them when they leave the home and have to do this by themselves. Because we don’t give them that practice, they have a difficult time doing it when they’re by themselves. And you have to strike the balance of, yes I’m trying to be respectful. Yes, but I also want to advocate for myself. I don’t think this is the right path for me. I think this is the right path for me, you know? And being okay with that, and respecting their autonomy as an adult, you know? It’s a big balance and that’s a whole other conversation.
[00:31:45] Paula: I was about to say and a whole other conversation. And then another question I have for you now, is again to the children who come, who are international, to the international students. So incoming students from different parts of the world. What would you say to them for the expectation you know, college life in America?
[00:32:06] Carol: Well, one of the things I noticed for all, a lot of our international students, is the tenancy to just connect with other people from your country. And people who look like you, eat your foods and that’s important, you know. I loved when I had a classmate who knew what cassava leaves was, and actually cooked it in her dorm room. And I would go, and she had a rice pot and we, you know, we will have some food. That’s wonderful. But also branching out and connecting and really taking advantage of learning about other people and other cultures. That’s important. I don’t think we do that enough. We all, Americans alike stay in our comfort zone. But what I would, what I always wanted to challenge students is to really take full advantage of the people, and the experiences that you can gain. One of the greatest opportunities I had was just learning more about Luna new year, you know. And what that was to Asian culture, countries. Not calling the Chinese new year, you know. I didn’t understand that that was offensive to those countries as celebrated lunar new year, but wearing from China. You know, just different things like that. And giving yourself grace, you can’t be perfect, no one is perfect only God only. God is perfect. And just learning that if you fail, you’re not a failure.
[00:33:35] Paula: I love that. If you fail, you’re not a failure. Because for these two branches of students, the first generation whose parents are immigrants, and then international students. Failure is shame associated with shame as opposed to, what can I learn from this? This probably just wasn’t right for me. Well, how can I start again? So I love what you said, that failure is not the end of the world, and maybe the beginning of a discovery. It may be a discovery period.
[00:34:06] Carol: Absolutely.
[00:34:07] Paula: Embrace that, embrace. So Carol, tell my listeners where they can contact you. Because this is, I really enjoyed this conversation. It’s been educational to me and I’m sure to a lot of the listeners, as well. Especially coming from two angles, one, you’re a first-generation American. Secondly, you’ve lived in different parts of the United States. You were born in Brooklyn, you moved to New Jersey. And then at the age of 13, moved to North Carolina where it was a completely different experience. And you know that I know impacted your outlook. When you went to University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, you realized that all those experiences were worthwhile, they impacted you in ways you brought something to the campus. So tell us about where they can find you and learn more about your business and all the things you’re doing? Because you’re doing, I like the work you’re doing. It’s unique, at least from what I’m hearing, it’s different from what I’ve ever experienced or heard people talk about for college prep.
[00:35:10] Carol: Yes, absolutely. And I am so grateful to have had a chance to talk with you. Like I said, I’m a very proud first-generation American. My parents are from Sierra Leone, we’re Creole, so that’s a whole other conversation that we could’ve gotten into. With the colonization and how that impacted us and all of that. And so I’ll love to continue to have this conversation with your listeners. You can find me on my website, “www.carolbendavies.com”. I’m on social media, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, with my name “Carol Ben Davies”. I would love to have a coffee chat with you. And I’m sure we can maybe put the link somewhere where you can find that and get on a call with me, where I can hear what your challenges are and supporting your college bound child, and seeing how I can assist them. I do believe I bring a very unique take to college preparation. I don’t believe that it’s all about just the testing, and the essays, and you know, sort of positioning your child for a particular application process. I really believe it’s helping to strengthen a child, helping them to understand who they are. Helping them to find the right career path for them. Helping them to be strategic when they get to campus, so they’re taking advantage of resources and opportunities and internships. So when they graduate, they can really be in a position the types of jobs that they hope for and deserve. And so I look forward to having that conversation. I help students who are as young as middle school, all the way to students who are in college. And I have my niece, not my niece, my cousin, actually a recent college graduate. And she and I were having a conversation about the real world and how that transition was, has been difficult for her. And how we don’t prepare college students for, you know, this new life, this new independence. So it’s like all these different transitions that’s really important, and we just kind of expect it’s just going to happen. There’s a little bit of, there’s a lot of opportunities that I’m excited that I am able to provide.
[00:37:40] Paula: I absolutely love it. Especially as you, this one thing that just jumped out, that you help prepare students from middle school when they graduate from college that I haven’t heard.
[00:37:53] Carol: Yes. Yes. I am here preparing students for college ends life. That’s the difference between me and anyone else that’s out there. I don’t just focus on the college piece, because that is one, one important aspect, but much more is how we positioning them for the life that they deserve, so they can thrive not merely survive.
[00:38:15] Paula: Absolutely. And to my amazing listeners, if you just enjoyed listening to Carol Ben Davis, please head over to Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere that you listen to podcasts and click subscribe. And if you are an immigrant woman, or the child of an immigrant woman from the Caribbean or Africa, and you found these ladies stories and their professions interesting, please let us know in your reviews. And last but not least, if you’d like to be a guest on my show “Chatting With The Experts”. Please head over to www.chattingwiththeexperts.com/contact us and let’s talk. I’d love to hear your own experience. Thank you so much, Carol. You are an amazing woman. I’ve said that like five times and I mean it.
[00:39:26] Carol: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.